Monday, October 12, 2015

Hull-deck joint

The Columbia 43 used an H-channel hull deck joint ("HDJ"). This consists of a long aluminum extrusion shaped like an H in cross-section. The hull fits into the bottom part of the H, and the deck piece fits into the top. Here's a page that illustrates it from Boating Magazine, September 1971. The diagram there is:


 Mine is slightly different:

There is no rubber trim strip, and two SS strips cover the top and bottom of the joint. Here's how mine is built:



I suspect that a PO removed the rubber strip and ground off the lip that held it. Two long stainless steel strips run along the upper and lower edges of the H-channel, screwed into the channel with SS screws. They cover the pop rivet heads and extend just over the edge of the channel. There's a fillet of epoxy along the top and bottom of the channel, which I suppose was meant to seal it. It failed.

This photo shows the SS strips removed:

I cleaned off the surface oxidation with a wire wheel:


You can see the pop rivet heads and the epoxy fillet along the top. It looks like a PO also smeared epoxy over the whole H-channel, then painted it blue.

There are many places where the epoxy fillet failed. I dug around one:


The brown stuff is failed caulk from the Pre-Cambrian era. I could dig it out with a knife.

Here's a simplified sketch:
The epoxy fillet has cracked in many places, and water has worked through the cracks and through the ancient caulk. But I notice water coming down the inside of the hull from the lower part of the aluminum extrusion. It's not obvious where this is coming from, but it may be that water running down the outside of the hull seeps up into the lower part of the H, up around the top of the hull, and down the inside. Or maybe water gets in around the pop rivets or the screws that fasten the SS strips. The water fills the extrusion, then leaks out the lower pop rivets, and down the inside of the hull.

And no, the surveyor didn't catch any of this. The POs had carefully cleaned the interior water stains, and didn't mention the leaks at all. Mind you, the boat is 40 years old, so I was hardly surprised that it leaked.

So here's my two-part plan.

Plan A

I have a combination tool with a 1/16th wheel that I will use to grind out the ancient caulk without going down far enough to decapitate the pop rivets. I'll do this top and bottom, then fill with the thin version of Life-Calk (the one that penetrates into cracks more easily). To prevent the material from running out from the lower part of the H-channel, I'll run a strip of outdoor blue tape along right after my caulk gun to seal it off. I hope.

Next, I'll test with a garden hose and see if the seal works. If it does, terrific. I just replace the SS strips (with caulked screws). If it doesn't, then on to plan B.

Plan B

I will rout a groove into the fiberglass immediately above and below the H-channel. The groove will be about 1/4" wide and 1/8" deep. I'll lay wet strips of FG cloth over the H-channel, and tuck the edges into this groove. When I have three or four layers of cloth, I'll fill whatever is left of the grooves with epoxy putty.

I won't be able to fair this glass overlay to the hull, because that would be just way too much work -- and would ruin my beautiful Awl-grip paint job. So to cover the whole thing, I'll build a solid teak rubbing strake wide enough to cover from just above the upper groove to just below the lower one. I'll mill a recess in the back of the wood to accommodate the thickness of the aluminum H-channel plus my glass layup. I'll then fill the back of the rubbing strake with caulk, screw it in \with SS screws (caulked), and cover with plugs. It would look something like this:



I'm wondering, though. When I dig out the old caulk, if I avoid the rivets I will only be digging out about half of the caulk. Maybe I should drill out each pop rivet, then grind out the caulk most of the way down the H (my grinding tool isn't wide enough to reach the cross-bar of the H, so I won't cut through it). Then insert the new runny caulk, then immediately insert a new (caulked) pop rivet. I would work in sections of about 6 feet at a time, so I won't actually separate the entire deck from the hull all at once! But I don't know how long the pop rivet would have to be. I guess I could drill one out, then feel around with a wire to find out.

Does that sequence make sense? Or should I apply the runny caulk, let it set for a day or two, then insert the new rivets? Or not chop off the old rivets at all? I figure if I'm going to this much work, I may as well do as thorough a job as I can. And I really want to avoid plan B if possible (although that teak rubbing strake would look really nice!)

10 comments:

  1. From BrantleyChuck on CruisersForum:

    Congrats on the project! Very nice descriptions on the hull deck joint. That "H" design does look problematic .

    Problem I see with your solutions to the hull deck joint is that they could be temporary. I might think about just grinding the whole aluminum "H" extrusion out from the outside using a 4 inch grinder with 36 grit flap disc. Grind nearly all the way though the fiberglass at the joint. Tapering out to the rivet holes then permanently joining the hull deck with a layup of fiberglass and epoxy. Leave what is left of the extrusion on the inside. I would do this in sections as you suggested . I nice clean solution, no trim pieces needed.
    Fairing and repainting the area would go quicker than you think. The whole job would take 2 to 3 weeks full time work I would think.

    The inaccessible through hulls can also be ground off and removed and the holes repaired from the outside. Saving your ripping out the flooring. Have fun

    ReplyDelete
  2. From Gord May on CruisersForum:
    The “H” joint is one of the hardest to fix. You can’t really take it apart and expect to get it back together without a great deal of difficulty. The hull and deck were assembled in a jig. If you remove the channel, both will be unsupported and floppy.

    Most joints of this type are fastened with pop rivets. Each fastener, as well as the top deck and bottom hull joint, are possible sources of leaks.

    First step is to eliminate any leaks from the pop rivets. If they are still tight, you can try sealing the head of each one with 3M5200. If they are loose, you can carefully drill them out and replace them. Make sure you use aluminum pop rivets with closed ends. The closed ends eliminate another potential source of leaks. Dab each rivet with sealant as you replace it.

    The outside top and bottom edges are another potential source of leaks in this type of joint. You can try “Captain Tolleys” if you feel lucky. Otherwise, clean the sealant out of the seam as well as you can. Use a thin blade to scrape out as much of the old sealant as you can. The edges of the fiberglass deck and hull won’t be uniform, so the gap will vary from place to place.

    Mask off the edges of the channel and the deck or hull with tape. Then force sealant into the seam with as much force as you can. Clean off the excess sealant for a smooth seam.

    ReplyDelete
  3. From Gord May on CruisersForum:
    See also ➥ 600 Outfit & Furnishing
    Particularly ➥ Rub Rail Repair

    And ➥ http://www.columbia26mk2.com/c26hude.gif

    ReplyDelete
  4. From Jim Bunyard on CruisersForum:

    The deck of a 43' sailboat held on with pop-rivets?!

    Plan A from your blog seems temporary at best. Plan B seems labor intensive and still a little lacking in the strength and longevity department.

    Depending on your ultimate goal and plans for the use of the boat, plan B may or may not be adequate.

    If I wanted to fix it as permanently as possible, I'd ditch the whole aluminum H-channel system completely. I would replace it in six to eight foot sections, by grinding the outboard flange off completely, then pulling the remaining piece out from inside. I would then grind the inside of the joint to down to raw glass and lamiinate a 3" X 5/16" (or so, ideally it would be the same thickness as the hull in that area) strip of G10 over the joint with epoxy/milled fiber putty. Then I would mechanically attach the hull and deck by bolting the flanges to the G10 with 5/16" SS countersunk bolts and lock nuts and washers, Finally I would grind the outside and cover the whole joint, bolts and all, with fiberglass and epoxy resin.

    I only suggest something this involved because of the extensive nature of your other outlined work. If you're gutting and rebuilding the interior, what better time to fix it permanently?

    ReplyDelete
  5. From Terra Nova on CruisersForum:

    The removal of a portion of the original extrusion will have somewhat compromised the joint. So, in addition to re-sealing it, you must be concerned with reinforcing the joint, once you have removed the rub rails. Adding sufficient fiberglass reinforcement will make a big job to cover or fair it. Adding a teak rub rail won't do much to reinforce the joint, but might cover most of the repair. The joint must stand on its own merit.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Chuck: If I grind off the H-channel from the outside, and grind the glass almost all the way, I could then build it back up just like repairing a crack. But with a 12:1 bevel, this would require a 6-inch grind above and below the joint (assuming a 1/2" hull thickness). That's no problem on the deck side, but it would intrude about four inches into the Awl-grip hull paint. Even if I fair it beautifully, the transition will be pretty clear. I could get around this by adding a decorative stripe along the lower edge of the repair. But the repaired area wouldn't be Awl-gripped (unless I take that on myself -- yikes!). So overall, I'm a bit worried about the final cosmetics.

    Jim: Removing the complete H-channel including the inside extrusion, installing a G10 backing strip, etc. would make for a very strong, permanent solution. Two problems in my case: one, the visual transition from the repaired area to the existing Awl-Grip (as described above). Two, although I will be redoing the entire interior, I was hoping to do it in stages. The aft cabin one winter, the main saloon the next, and the forward stateroom the winter after that. So the entire insides won't be "available" all at once. But I think if I could solve the exterior cosmetic issues, the strength of your suggested solution is very attractive.

    ReplyDelete
  7. From Jim Bunyard on CruisersForum:

    Terra Nova is right, if you use the G10 as shown in the diagram in your post 13, there is no need for it and it can be eliminated.

    What I had in mind is shown in my first, drawn attachment. The strength is derived mainly from the combination of the bolts, the G10 and the bonding strength of the epoxy/milled fiber putty. The three wavy lines on the outside are meant to represent light fiberglass cloth that is mainly to seal the joint on the outside; it provides little strength, but adds fairing potential. The only other possible change I'd make would be to use silicon-bronze bolts. as a guard against crevice corrosion.

    [img]http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=111100&d=1445031468" width="300" height="300"[/img]

    This method is unorthodox, and as such is just a suggestion of how I would probably do it. I take the often stated 12:1 ratio as a guide line for general practices, but do not consider it an absolute; I prefer to evaluate the situation and adapt my solutions to the problem at hand.

    By no means am I saying this is the way you should do it. The suggestion to contact other owners to see what they've done is a good one.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Jim - thanks for the details and photos. Any idea how hard it would be to grind off the inside extrusion:

    [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VXOtzX10u4w/Vhx2qcFD7iI/AAAAAAAACtQ/o5yjVqLU98I/s1600/Hull%2Bdeck%2Bjoint%2B-%2BSerendipity%2B2.png[/img]

    Perhaps I could do it by cutting through the upper and lower shoulders, removing the outer shell. Next, grind through the horizontal part of the "H". Next, drill out the rivets. Finally, pry off the two vertical faces of the "H".
    An alternative would be to work from the outside and grind at the horizontal part of the H until it is detached from the exterior vertical face (leaving two parallel strips of aluminum on the outside of the hull). Drill out the rivets, then pry off all the aluminum parts. This would avoid grinding/cutting aluminum inside the boat.
    When prying off the extrusion, would it be OK to use a heat gun to soften the original adhesive? Or is there a danger of damaging the fiberglass?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Well, I tried plan A (digging out the caulk, etc.). It turns out to be impossible to dig out the old caulk beyond the first quarter inch or so. I'ts very stiff and rubbery, and the gap between the aluminium and the hull is just too narrow to get a tool into. I tried the combination tool with the grout-routing wheel, but it did nothing. It just pushes the rubbery caulk down deeper into the channel. Then I tried a hacksaw blade that looks like this: dremel blade. With the tool mounted at 90 degrees, I was able to push it down into the gap between the channel and the hull. It was slow going, but it did get out the first 1/4 " of dead caulk. But the rivets get in the way. Unless you cut through or drill out the rivets, you can't get the blade in very far. And the rivets are spaced less than 2" apart. It turns out that the best tool to pull out the old caulk is a keyhole saw with a hacksaw blade -- but only after the gap has been opened up with the combo tool. And still the rivets get in the way.

    I did a test section of about 10 feet, then tried to re-caulk it. I used Life-Calk liquid, which is less viscous than the regular Life Calk. It only comes in little 3-ounce tubes, and is very pricey. The material did sort of seep down into the gap, but only for a quarter inch or so. This is definitely not going to work. Perhaps a crack-fixing epoxy would flow down there easier, but then it would be brittle and would no doubt crack over time.

    So scrub plan A.

    I plan on the following. Working a section at a time, and from the outside of the hull only, drill out the pop rivets, then grind off the aluminum. Grind the fiberglass using a 1 to 12 taper. Leave the inside of the H-channel in place: it will act as a backstop for the fiberglass. Then do a conventional FG layup, finished with gel coat. If I'm careful, the lower margin of the new gel coat will be about 2 inches below where the existing lower SS strip is. When the whole thing is properly faired and sanded, I'll repaint that area with blue paint. The end result will be a still-beautiful white hull with a blue band from the gunwhale down about 8 inches. It should look great.

    Now to decide between epoxy or regular resin.

    ReplyDelete


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